Oh for Pete's fucking sake and crying out loud.

"Wheelerguy" (wheelerguy) 10/13/2016 at 13:00 • Filed to: Autonomous Cars, Trolley Problem

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Why make a choice about who to protect when you can just brake before you hit an outsider? It’s exceedingly simple.

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Don’t make it seem as if this is an immense ethical dilemma. Our ideal autonomous car is supposed to be better than us. It shouldn’t be making such a dumb choice. Just brake and let the pedestrian or what have you cross the road.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 13:05

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Autonomous pedestrians are the only solution.

way2blu does a rev update > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 13:14

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I think the typical situation that’s brought up in most of the discussions, where a group of children suddenly appears in the road and there’s no time to brake, is fundamentally unrealistic.

If I’m driving through any area where there’s even a chance of pedestrian traffic, you can bet your third pedal that I’ll be on maximum alert. Not just scanning the road ahead but also paying attention to sidewalks and crosswalks, to be absolutely sure I’m ready to brake at a moment’s notice.

Until autonomous cars can beat me at situation awareness, I have no plans to let them drive for me. Regardless, the “group of orphans in front of my speeding Mercedes” trolley problem should never happen. We have speed limits for a reason and we pay attention for a reason.

*phew* I’ve got more to say but I won’t unless y’all would like to discuss the issue further...

for Michigan > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 13:15

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Is this about that MIT autonomous car morality test thing?

Takuro Spirit > way2blu does a rev update 10/13/2016 at 13:19

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The car will be able to detect and brake faster than your eye-foot coordination will be. It’ll see the same things you see. Hopefully.

If it can see the ball bounce into the street proceeding the child and it brakes then? Good for it. If it waits until little Timmy’s head is visible between the panes of glass of the parked carts he’s running out between? Good for it.

If it waits until he’s directly in front of whatever sensor array is monitoring for obstacles? God Speed, little Timmy.

For Sweden > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/13/2016 at 13:20

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I’m an engineer, is that close enough to a robot?

way2blu does a rev update > Takuro Spirit 10/13/2016 at 13:26

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I guess the big question is, will the car ever be fully able to identify pedestrian threats before they enter the street? My concern is that some pedestrians might be easier for a human to identify, whereas the car might not notice them until they’re actually in the street.

I think autonomous cars have their merits but I don’t know if they can think abstractly like a squishy human driver can. I don’t know if we want them to be able to do that...

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > For Sweden 10/13/2016 at 13:27

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Only if you’re also Kraftwerk.

Dusty Ventures > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 13:30

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They’re talking about situations where someone runs right in front of the car and there’s no time to brake

Nonster > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 13:32

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I agree, people like to think that they have impeccable situational awareness to identify this situation before the hypothetical children enter the road. Yes people have that capacity, but it is probably rarely realized.

I think people are giving the tech a little too much credit. If a situation like that arises the car like a human will try its best to stop and that’s it. People like bringing up the trolley problem without thinking too much about how ridiculously improbable it is to end up in that situation to begin with

Wheelerguy > Dusty Ventures 10/13/2016 at 13:43

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No time to brake? That robocar has radar and IR sensors and should do more than enough to see those in front of them for enough of a distance that the brakes will still be able to do its work in time, even with a heat signature or two barreling full steam ahead.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > way2blu does a rev update 10/13/2016 at 13:57

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That’s it exactly. Successfully IDing not only current threats but possible threats, and then weighing possible paths, possible intrusions by likelihood, and comparing all these little fractal man-path possibility sets against one another is not only computationally more complicated by orders of magnitude, but spectacularly harder to even figure out how to program than MANS IN ROAD HURRR.

for Michigan > for Michigan 10/13/2016 at 13:58

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Because they specifically said that the scenario is brake failure.

DynamicWeight > Nonster 10/13/2016 at 14:24

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It’s also amazing how many people think the following two things:

1. That they will, in this spur of the moment sudden occurrence, simply intuit the most moral action and follow through with it immediately. Instead of having a “DANGER, EVADE” reaction.

2. Somehow avoid the accident better than the computer would. The number of people I have talked to who have told that, upon coming across a situation like this, jammed on the brakes with all their might and turned the steering wheel as hard as the could, and then were surprised their car plowed into whatever they hit, leads me to believe this is not true.

DynamicWeight > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/13/2016 at 14:29

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Places where threats like that are all already designated with lower speed limits, which the autonomous car will actually follow. The car will work with GPS, it will know if it’s in a neighborhood or on a freeway.

You can argue, but I live next to a stop sign on a 25 MPH one way through road. The number of people that blow through the stop sign at 40MPH is so much worse than I ever thought it would be. Come drink a beer on my porch on a Saturday afternoon. You’ll see at least one. Maybe two. Out of maybe 30 cars that drive by.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > DynamicWeight 10/13/2016 at 14:37

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I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think the “neighborhood” limits are a comprehensive check on things. Either the car is obeying the limit *and* risking a panic stop (with its own safety issues) every time somebody looks to be moving toward the road, or it’s not, and somebody’s getting squished. There’s absolutely that rogue element of people, of course, but even Fuckhead #A1F49 blowing the stop sign *might* correctly judge that the football about to be thrown is a potential hazard cause. Pilot Program ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha, not so much.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > for Michigan 10/13/2016 at 14:39

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That scenario is flawed, you could clearly steer through them, hitting like 2 max in any of the situations.

Sam > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 14:42

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I... I don’t think you quite understand how these sensors work. Even thermal sensors can’t penetrate solid objects. If a kid darts from behind a trashcan or a wall, there is literally no way to detect it.

Dusty Ventures > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 14:58

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Think about a kid playing catch in the front yard alongside a 50 mph street. The ball rolls into the street and the child, too young to know better chases it, running in front of your car when you’re only 70 feet away. No matter how good a computer system is it can’t stop a car in that distance

Dusty Ventures > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 15:06

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Or another, simpler example, something/someone in the road on the other side of a blind crest. These sensors are line of sight, so over a hill they’re just as blind as a driver would be. If there’s something immediately beyond that crest then, again, even a robot car won’t be able to stop in time.

AntiSpeed > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 15:08

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But I might spill my macchiato!

nermal > Wheelerguy 10/13/2016 at 17:29

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Screw the hippies that want to save the children at the expense of the car’s occupants. I want my $100k+ autonomous Murder-cedes to mow them down without me even feeling the bump. Hopefully one or two manage to jump out of the way before hand, so they can tell their friends the importance of looking both ways before crossing the street.

Wheelerguy > nermal 11/19/2016 at 07:40

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And then they’d grow up hell-bent at revenge, not just to you or Daimler, but the entire system.